Tiber Tim Harford Sarah Montague James Dobbin Asia Pakistan India United States Afghanistan China Us York Wilson Us South Africa Sialkot Russia Ris Ridley Ridgeway Regan Co Mumbai Gandhi Fulham Dani Briggs Brazil Asia Americans America

Hardtalk 2017-09-29:02:06.00
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  • You're listening to a podcast from the B.B.C. world service, this is hard talk with me Sarah Montague thanks for downloading.

  • This edition of the programme, and I hope you enjoy it.

  • President trump as accused Pakistan of housing, the very terrorists, that the United States is fighting, but he says that will have to change, and change it immediately.

  • And he questioned why the United States is giving Pakistan billions in aid, and military support, it's an argument that's been made before, but now, other countries are also pointing to what they see as Pakistan seeming doublespeak on terrorism.

  • Even China has signed a declaration, including Pakistan based groups on a terror list.

  • My guest today is Pakistan's foreign Minister how a jet, a safe, are they at risk of losing all their allies, because of their inability or unwillingness to control militant, why do you a thief in new York welcome to hard.

  • Thank you.

  • How do you respond to that challenge from President trump that Pakistan often gives safe haven to agents of chaos, violence and terror.

  • Well, we have given a statement and response of war drum said three weeks back, and now let me explain explain that again by the bands have almost forty to forty five push territory of our finest he has no control on that kid, why would they need to see if Avon's embark son, then they have their own territory, They can operate freely, without any hindrance without any problem.

  • So this is basically, you know, this is scapegoating bug son whatever has happened in our finest would last one and a half hide the peak, they were more than one hundred thousand American soldiers who were there on the combine them, I say, of forces, they have not achieved anything, they've lost territory, the everyone we really achieved what they wanted to achieve in our finest time, non scared Gordon Pakistanis easy, but the fact remains that they are fighting a battle which is not to finish in the near future.

  • Talking of his surge by four tiles in a five thousand or six thousand, whatever that reliant make an indifference.

  • We propose that there should be a political approach in the political solution to this problem.

  • Military solution is already feared.

  • So, when President trump he talks of, first of all, the amount the billions and billions of dollars that the United States is paying absolutely love, I says, and he also says no partnership can survive a countries harbouring of militants and terrorists who target U.S. service members and officials.

  • He's just wrong Izzy, yeah, absolutely wrong.

  • Absolutely wrong.

  • I dawn scapegoating Pakistan for their failures.

  • Number one.

  • Number two, a docker love this billions next sit down with the Americans and soggy about what you know.

  • Forty five almost one and a half hour arose our infrastructure is space is being used way American forces, they're Free, of course, we have suffered all, whatever one hundred billion dollars of losses economic losses.

  • So you can't even on the figures on the money that the United States has given Pakistan is that over fifteen years, the total is thirty three billion U.S dollars, actually the most expense, which is audited and by images, not in full, so they're dead.

  • There is something which is debatable.

  • I think not gold, the whole situation on the correct situation, but in terms of where terrorists are operating.

  • Are you suggesting that Pakistan is blameless.

  • As far as Afghanistan.

  • Let me explain, I thought, really, we are absolutely sure about that whatever is happening in Pakistan.

  • Doctors being orchestrated from fun soil, the other safe havens of D.T.P. ridges very good Taliban Pakistan, they operate from there, what happened.

  • I mean, public school, and it was, it was a restricted area towards superised from off one side.

  • So we have the same problem that we have, actually, we provide the coordinates of the people who are operating from there. location and everything, and I think has been done, forgive me, do you then say the same to the United States and say, look, we have a terrorist, a problem because of you and your loss of control in Afghanistan absolutely absolutely did they have lost control of the air, and they're fighting a losing one daggers daggers.

  • Why fuck son is having problem, not a V.F., I've my good two hundred Thousand saw years odd restaurant mode with traditional enemy on our Eastern border.

  • We have something like one hundred thousand I gave also looked at the flat on a restaurant, bar and end up with the quantum of the taggers.

  • Will bid that door hundred thousand soldiers fighting the on a Veggie neston bod, or one of the difficulties you have is that people like that.

  • There's a belief, perhaps, you don't want peace, that it's not in your interests, having supported the Taliban in Afghanistan.

  • It is not now in your interest for there to be b. to be peace, because they help keep, in the words of Michael Kugel men whose, Deputy Director of the Wilson centres Asia programme.

  • He says the Taliban help keep Pakistan's Indian enemy at Bay in Afghanistan, they're dead conceptual absolutely drong that does, I think, lack of their knowledge of the situation in Pakistan.

  • We used to have some influence, and that was why we were suggesting that it should be brought to the debris, and there should be negotiation on whatever is happening in our finest, but over the years, we have lost control on influence going on one other countries in the region, who have influence on le Monde then us actually all on violet ones have gone detras almost everybody in the in the region, it'll read on monopolise this relationship that former envoy to Afghanistan, James Dobbin has said today.

  • They view it as a monster.

  • They've created, But can't afford to use then lend their stock above, could you bring monsters.

  • Most of these monsters, Richard, the in our country.

  • In this hall region were created by bye by Brock, see what we were fighting on behalf of Madigan's, this is the legacy of those days.

  • This is the baggage which Reacher, Pakistan, and the whole region is getting from the one which will swamp, and it's the less Bartok above this ring on, but they did, and I did, I could the difficulty, Pakistan has here, though, is it, but it's not just the United States.

  • We also have a situation where the bricks countries, Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, have all signed a declaration which names Pakistan based organisations like lash guide Tiber and dry share Muhammad, and says that they that condemns terror attacks and send those committed organising all supporting such acts must be held accountable.

  • Your information is not complete.

  • If not, I learnt to use a word wrong.

  • What do your information is not complete their statement bridge game out of Briggs was divided by her in the last year, out of Umbra, the heart of a conference, which took place in number, so we signed this statement.

  • So, so, then why did your defence, and that, I think, I think we reject the declaration.

  • You're saying you signed it, but your own defence Minister said, we reject the declaration of the bricks, is one of the motivations.

  • You just mention proscribed in Bach's time, then embarks leadership, leadership, but he's in custody of under House arrest on the end detained by fax and gum, you're not taking enough action against them, and it was something that, in the wake of that signing of the brick state that we're you, it is it dead, we should impose some restrictions on the activities of the elements like lash cried Tiber and Asia, Mohammed, they're already proscribed in Bach's time and brightening the nose around their necks.

  • Then there's absolutely no doubt about it, some it is debatable that perhaps more actions Gandhi taken against them.

  • If somebody's intent, I think it's absolutely wrong.

  • You save people doubt our tent.

  • There seems to be an awful lot of people who doubt your intent.

  • Is it true, as has been reported in the times that a senior Pakistani government official said, China has demanded privately the Pakistan should attack Islamist militants have China, I've been pressing you privately to do more.

  • No, we have in lust for years operated against dead Ris off from different background in our tribe Eladio they were proud of gone rigid against them.

  • They were in China, is it's done Islamic movement, who were also in this library absolutely there's Dani asked was that I carne network all Pakistan based organisation there are normal his last three, three years, we have eliminated them get, given what we know about what President trump has said in public.

  • Are we at a point where they could be, to use the words of some commentators a divorce between the United States and packers, there are such dribble more Americans, but the threats that have been made by both sides, between the United States, the Americans and Pakistan as to what could happen there.

  • Perhaps they stop giving you aid, perhaps, as some Pakistanis have threatened and, indeed, the Pakistan's lower House of Parliament voted that Pakistan should consider saying, you can't cross a territory, the dreaded Lucian, which was fast by the Parliament.

  • Obviously, there was a response to what bread's drum said, from sport from fourth my what doc, and of his lead to Pakistan, we are receiving any aid from U.S., it's hardly anything, I think you were, it's not make a they stop it, you won't miss it.

  • But are we are, we are talking about a situation where you will seriously consider saying to the Americans, you cannot supply your troops in Afghanistan, via a route through Pakistan.

  • That situation is thought there is, I think that that is hyper target, but I hope a tactic, but it does happen in the past, but at the moment, there is nothing we are considering.

  • Absolutely not.

  • Considering that we want to engage U.S., we want to convince them that there is a bloody good approach available, and they must adopt that approach.

  • The military abroad for, like I said earlier, has food, he does fear lend It does make miserably fraid.

  • So less Regan Regan co operate.

  • O.K., so when you saw when you were in your Prime Minister saw President trump as you did at the United Nations.

  • What was said to privately, it will send Ridley, why don't you.

  • Why are you asking me publicly, because all we know about the public rhetoric is some very angry language that suggests the relationships between American Pakistan are going to be seven.

  • I don't think so.

  • Their relationship is in jeopardy.

  • There isn't is there, the relationship is in jeopardy.

  • We, we have a difference of opinion.

  • That is true.

  • We have different difference differences on approach to off problem, a fine piece is as essential to us as anyone else in that region of the Americans.

  • So we can talk, we have, we have already met right Ben Ben Prime my briefly the President in a deception and incoming there is perhaps a meeting between me and this was Secretary of state States, so they'd there, it is the Edmund menders already view, we are trying to find a common ground by our approach was a convergence of approach, an American approach to find enough solution men instead of blaming each other for failures or blaming each other, something which is not really, but I'm going to find a solution, I think we can find a solution.

  • One of the things we know that, whilst there is this very angry language between the two sides, And you're saying, look, it's fine, it's going to be fine.

  • President trump.

  • At the same time, he's applauding the important contributions to desist to stability and Afghanistan by India and asking them to be more involved, and this is something that I imagine you wouldn't, you're absolutely right, we we accept any Indian role in our finest that does that is absolutely correct.

  • I agree with what you're saying.

  • But let we treated that politics is an Aardvark of politics, possibly, so we are searching for the possible jointly with the Americans, we you were absolutely there are statements from both sides, which were Ridgeway, and which were requisite tree, but the fact remains that the solution cannot be found this problem without Pakistan, you have already told me, though, that the Americans are losing, and we'll lose the war in Afghanistan.

  • I, what I am saying is that the military solution, or a military approach did not les Bush for the political approach.

  • And what has happened in last fifteen years or fourteen dead.

  • No, a fire under a bit of controlled, then they had fourteen or fifteen years back.

  • Now we're next les Dryad the political option, you have this that hat.

  • You're having this argument, almost with America.

  • At the same time, we're hearing really quite bellicose language between Pakistan and India or Pakistan official has said.

  • If ever a national security is threatened by advancing foreign forces Pakistan will use all of its weapons, and I mean, all of our weapons to defend our country, the clear suggestion being that that involves nuclear weapon.

  • If there is a threat to our existence.

  • And if they did an aggression ridge ridge which is six existentially threat to our country, then obviously we staked everything on it is absolute don't nobody should how many in doubt about it, but do you think I think India threatens your exist.

  • Yes, there it is, what does this school star doctrine means they walk into a territory, the gap should a gently and then leveret Thea pollution, and then the left, we're lost.

  • We should, if you like, like they're a different the cold start, we should explain is an Indian strategy, which they've acknowledged exists, which would allow them to respond to crises, including attacks by militants from Pakistan, but it has been made clear that it wouldn't threaten the survival of Pakistan.

  • There it is.

  • Dear explain explanation or were our last ten months, nine months, two tolland seventeen hundreds a violation, they have line of control, and I work in my own constituency in my own vested where I live in last one week, they were um, there are five or six violations seven limb and property was destroyed.

  • So this is, this is not what I was saying that this double speak, and nothing else.

  • But you're too.

  • If you do it again.

  • You quick accuse them of double stops people, we're talking about, for example, Attacks by honour Indian army base in Kashmir.

  • Nineteen Indian soldiers killed this was last year.

  • India's national investigation investigation Agency said Lashkar eh Tiber was to blame the same group that they say, was to blame for the Mumbai attack in two thousand eight, when so many people were killed, and this is what these are.

  • These are the attacks that they feel they need to respond to, you know, they accuse of may.

  • This attack on the military base, but let me tell you, we are demanding from there them the beer have people, the accused who masterminded the deck on, send your day express, they have not done anything on that account.

  • Absolutely nothing if they have evidence on late poor, a bag on the military bases that we can cheer Evelyn's Regan da digear action accordingly.

  • They have really think I'm gonna die.

  • What they say is proof of that.

  • No, we do not have any conclusive proof act their bed that we have a serving naval Officer in all in our custody he spilled the beans.

  • Here's been masterminding every dad can different places in blood sun and elsewhere in bug son there, he's a serving near one Officer is Indian, you have the m. we have evidence, it is actually the bad pretty blustery, but do you have said of because of a few months ago, you were defence Minister, and you said, we will destroy India if it dares to impose a war On us.

  • Pakistan army's fully prepared to answer any misadventure of India, we have not made atomic devices to display in a showcase is such a situation arises, we will use it and eliminate India, do you really stand by that, let me lead maybe year clear nag that if a commits aggression against Pakistan.

  • And if there is an exit existentially threat to bugs with the full might island in repeat the same thing, and Flash car in Tiber provokes India into a response.

  • You are then in a situation where you will use nuclear weapons, it is, again, a hyper take a good thing in on dad that if the dead excuse and commit aggression against Pakistan, then obviously there's water in the water.

  • There is no restraint orders, why.

  • Let's apply a restrained, and let's talk Sialkot bound through negotiations.

  • But how can you remember how many new toy, it is when you are making such aggressive language, we have, we have the former head of re re re re read, no, not hear songs from their side near, they speak the same language, the former head O.K., what's that the British secret intelligence service, John sawyers has said, Pakistan has developed a battlefield nuclear weapons were talking about tactical weapons, not strategic ones, as a means to defend itself.

  • And here we have India declaring it would respond Militaire atlee Militaire if there was another attack, they'll like the one in Mumbai, knowing they would be Overwhelmed by Indian forces.

  • These weapons are Pakistan's way to halt Indian forces shortly after they cross the border, it makes it like war could be very quickly, very quickly reached even by accident.

  • They have flat.

  • Are you are, you are, you agree with that there is any likelihood of war, should be prevented, and that there were only really to prevent that is that we start button to, we create in a mask, which is conducive for negotiations and sorting out our differences, if leg.

  • Leg, the foreign Minister of friendly spall in you wench year if that, son of a speech or talk is done on it on it on international forum.

  • We have to respond to that we got a big lying down if they threaten our existence.

  • Then veered full day international come on inji to intervene, you have to respond immediately and respond than Fulham might go, don't put that down existenz that that is what I sent three months mag and everyone.

  • I'm to today, but to prevent an accident or prevent situation Brigadier wad between nuclear scarce, we must devise a mechanism, a safe.

  • Thank you for coming on hard talk.

  • Thank you.

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