You're listening to a podcast from the today programme on B.B.C. radio four, the security Council of the United Nations has spoken with one voice or North Korea, it's fifteen members met last night and was unanimous in denouncing the latest missile test firing a rocket over Japan, and demanding that they end their nuclear programme.
It is time for the North Korean regime to recognise the danger, or they are putting themselves in the United States will not allow their lawlessness to continue, and the Chinese Ambassador said this, the Warhol China's always committed to their goal of do you knew cries ageing of the peninsula, the maintenance of peace and stability on the peninsula and the settlement on the issue through dialogue and cut attentions China stand opposed to any chaos, a war on the peninsula.
What none of the fifteen Ambassador said was exactly what happens next, for the very good reason that nobody knows what North Korea will do next.
I've been talking to Max butkus who was America's Ambassador to China until Donald trump became President, I think you are a difficult position.
I say, difficult, because I think the atlee came during his is a rational person eyes and Alan that case, isn't many believe we like to believe there is is essentially in The cap at Seaton, if set up, take him.
Now, as a, what happens next, you think he's looking that question reactions to try to determine for himself, where the red line is Graham, and I think he's pretty, he's a sharp cookie and bears are German pretty well, where they're red line is that this could be crossed as a bite.
So massively jelly ancient, so it is, is we're in a tough spot that, which I think that's a slowish and just a large degree, Oh, now depends on how well we got there is the Western countries now States and U.K. and others.
I can work would Shine up energising to drever hard pardon as darker and just em early by as the state's prose work only potential, a solution with North Korea and um, we, we were in a mirror here, and that means that States, especially since we turned a lead, and these matters have to be very shrewd and smart in figuring to conserve it a source of, which includes many countries, but especially China and where do you believe, and I realise this is a question, nobody can answer properly answered.
Clearly, for obvious reasons, but where do you think Kim sees the red line as being, it's certainly not is, it's only he will cross the line if he shoots vessels at Guam individuals muscles that Guam alone.
States cannot tolerate that selling that the Intermediate Missal or edged northern Japan, I was pretty close, I think, but it's this there comes a point, he's not sure where he is totally, and neither are we totally it depends on our military prowess to tend, what are the factors here, but I think he's getting close to it, and my judgement is he will probably not too much more provocative than it's been there's four discontinuous slum is stopping his numbers up capability in there's no grit technology, yeah.
Step of, though, Andy's China prepared to see that.
Do you know the Chinese.
Well, obviously, from your time there is China, prepared to see him doing that, and if so, why.
Why doesn't China want to put him back in his box, try out some was worships stability, the party, we must have been tame power, I was worried to do that it might accused to built it is keep the people happy, so Chinese have jobs that syrup, but they abhor instability on the peninsula.
They don't want it crisis brewing, which results in refugees flooding in cross over into China.
They certainly don't want a solution were staged in South Korea have much more influence on up, and then them.
Well, no state says it's basically there, it taz back door.
They are all right.
I know it's very interesting.
I am the most rock rectory expression, I've never heard President in years was his description of a given joy.
You no, He just does not like that man had all given there is, they still are a bit of box.
They're willing to tot tolerate uncertainty about his Missal which future so long, and then rinse stable economically and politically.
They just don't look they abhor instability.
So the message from the United States expressed at the un last night at the U.S. will not allow their lawless there lawlessness to continue, and the rest of the world is with us.
Isn't strictly accurate.
Is it if it was uncertain.
I thought, we run the risk, with all the condemnation of losing some Opera effectiveness and even positioning, Oh, aircraft curve, it's North Korea, there comes a point that's, I would say it's a paper.
Tiger, I'm seamstress lose its effectiveness, the diplomatic solution here, in my judgement, he has won it were, we were very strongly any constructively with mutual respect in the cage.
The countries and the region's, especially China, I think you're very stays up as a little bit about, it's a pretty complex, sometimes with gills of other countries, including give Jonah.
He is not still, but in the end, went healing le cheile chairs, Julian ping, which has there is very, very smart, so we have to, or in Robert about Merc of exceptional ism.
To me, that means, Hey, rugs changed try has so much power.
Now we've got to work with China and more as a partner, so even to stressed any form of Limited military strike against North Korea would so alienate China that it would be both ash and political mistake from your perspective.
My hands were a tough spot, I had a Chinese is somewhat sympathetic with us, because chair doesn't like him either.
No, there's not whilst stace do to commence a nod to reaction there, because it would be to a destabilising them.
This is very complicated, it just takes very rational people to put idiot algae aside and just gets it down.
We're got what can pick him up, be done butter allium diplomatically and are trying to find some accommodation and some Club right, some agreement.
Are you with your experience of that part of the world of China, in particular, when you go to bed tonight, you've got to be a rather more worried about the prospect of some sort of nuclear confrontation than you might have been six months ago.
Oh yes, there's no question, and we were concerned, but I'm not so concerned, we're done, we're going to stay up all night with, we've got a problem, but we've got to keep working with that Ambassador.
Many thanks for talking to us.
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